I just wanted to say a short word on discipleship. Maybe it will continue tomorrow, maybe not.
I am a little disheartened by the ongoing argument of the Institutional Church verses the home church, or emergent church. I think such arguments ought not to be. I understand that these arguments will be, because we don't fully understand the Church as Christ intended.
So,here is my two cents worth about something that is important whether it be in the I.C., or any other form of "Church".
Discipleship is what we are commanded to do by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20. So, how do we do this? Well, the idea of discipleship to me means the continuance of a relationship with a person who formerly didn't believe, but now does. That can happen in any format. In fact, it must happen, if the new believer is going to learn about the full armor of God, or who they now are in Christ, or many other things that will help them in their relationship with God.
You see, whether we are in an Institutional Church, or not, we are called to teach our new brothers and sisters everything we have learned that is true. The relationship is to be mutually beneficial to each party, with the one being taught sharing all good things with his teacher. (Galatians 6:6).
In that last statement, I see nothing pertaining to what type of building this is done in. So, to my understanding, the Bible is silent on it, because it doesn't matter. We are not disciple-making machines. We are followers of Christ, whose first eleven true disciples changed the entire world, after He left. They weren't concerned about where they did it, they just did it.
I think we ought to focus more on the job at hand, building the relationship with the people we have already spent so much time with teaching them about Christ. New believers will have a harder time building relationships with God and others if we do not cement our relationship with them. How do we do this? Well, one way might be to meet regularly with them. I know, this sounds dangerously like Legalism, doesn't it?
Meet with someone regularly? That's like....... church, isn't?!? No, it isn't. It is discipleship, and fellowship. Church is the body of Christ. There is a difference. My short time blogging has taught me much about fellowship, and how we teach each other just by talking with each other. The problem is, if meeting in some sort of medium regularly seems too much like Legalism for us, then how is discipleship ever to take place?
This isn't a cry against any type of church. It is a cry for us to do what we are commanded to do by Christ, not for reward, but just because He said so. It seems to me that just because Jesus said so is a valid reason for doing something. If you disagree with this, please see Luke 17:9 & 10. I think Jesus was very clear, there are just some things we have to do, just because He said so.
A sometimes daily rendering of what is in my head at any given moment...or not. You belong to a family of love, not strife. You belong to the family of God, a brother to Jesus Christ, whether you believe it or not.
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17 comments:
Jesus is the teacher.
Relationship is the elementary element of life walking with Jesus, yes, but it is surely dubious to elevate ourselves to the position of absolutely essential to maintain another's walk with Jesus.
Direct them to Jesus, not ourselves.
Lucy
To me, "making disciples", is a natural ongoing part of following Christ. As we are disciples ourselves, the example we make to others (Christ in us), draws them to the Master. So, by simply living "in Christ", we will create disciples.
I don't see it as a "program", as does much of organized religion, but as a simple result of our faith in Christ. Jesus might possibly "use us" to teach, but He might not. The important thing is to be in tune to His will and be available to be a part of what He's doing in the lives of others, at His prompting.
It seems that the "church" sees the result of what Jesus does in people's lives, and immediately wants to formalize, structurize, plan, plot, and control everything into "programs" instead of just living life in Christ. We have this insatiable desire to "make" things happen. But in the end, our involvement often only gets in the way of what the Spirit was really doing. We are a church of people who wants to "lead" everything, including Jesus himself. It's time to humble ourselves and start trusting God, not ourselves and our programs. Are we following Christ? Or are we using Him to "power" our programs?
This is why I question the value of "organized religion". It has nothing to do with what the meetings look like, or what kind of building we meet in. It's much deeper than that. It's about attitudes of heart, and whether or not we truly place ourselves "under" God. It's about the difference between "sharing in life with Christ" and "participating in programs (as Godly as they may be)". It's not about the meeting, it's about the lives of the people who come together, and how their affected by the Spirit of God. It's an individual walk with Christ, not a "group walk".
When you say "there are just some things we have to do, just because He said so"... I don't see it as something WE have to do, because He does everything. He's saying, as we follow Him, this is what will happen. Problem is, we want to take the responsibility from Him, take charge, and do it ourselves. But, He is the teacher, we just make ourselves available to be used in the process, if He wills.
We have to learn to trust Him and let ourselves be open to what He's doing, and not panic everytime we think our lives don't look like "our picture" of life in Christ. He is not that tame or predictable. He is alive and dynamic. He is capable and powerful. Let's let Him do what He does... be God. If we will follow Him, everything else will fall into place.
Lucy, You are right. We are not "essential". But that's the point. We are allowed. When I use a word like "command" (and maybe I should have explained this about me), I don't look at it as a law, but as an allowance from God to be involved in His way.
Bruce, When we learn to walk as Christ walked, our personal agandas soon fly out the window. Much of what I have seen in the Christian community, whether it be in the I.C. (See Bruce, I do learn, amazing, huh?), or in a much different sense, is that often people's personal agandas get in the way of relationships that could foster, and even enhance the new believr's life with Christ. The word "busy" comes to mind. as in, "I'm too busy to meet with you every week. I just don't have the time." Hmmmmmmm..................
Do you know what that is? Most of the time, ((and if I could figure out how to bold in this stupid comment area, I would bold "most" (Not all of the time, most)), that is just garbage. It's an excuse to keep one's personal agenda. Maybe I am being a little insensitive about that, I admit that is a possibility. But when I see new believers who are basically left to figure things out on their own, I see bait for Satan, and it breaks my heart. There is a reason Paul stayed with many of the churches he began for quite a while. It wasn't because they wouldn't learn to walk with Jesus through Jesus' power. Rather, they would be more apt to follow the culture at the time, or to fall back into the same patterns they had always lived, if someone wasn't there to be an example for them, and to encourage them. Yes, Jesus could have done it without Paul. But I see in Jesus' choice to keep Paul with them the overwhelming truth that discipleship always involves people who stay, not people who return to their own agenda.
Christ doesn't need us, He lets us share with Him this amazing process. My point is not against any type of church, or for or against any type of program. It is simply a call that we be what we are called to be, and you said that in your comment, Bruce, "available". That isn't a program, that is a way of life. And right now, from my perspective, most believers, regardless of how they "do church", are unavailable.
Bruce, I am not worried about you. I have heard enough from you to see your heart shine through, or rather, I should say, Jesus' heart shine through you. My concern, and the reason I write, is to encourage others to do the same, no matter where they are. If a program works for some, then give them the program, what difference does it make? The fact is, God will dictate the schedule and the means. We just need to be available. There are some people who do amazingly well in programs. I am not one of them, but I know many who are. And these people can learn to focus on Christ, and not the program, it's all a matter of surrender, and availability. What one has learned, he is to share willingly with others, and be available for others. In our culture, that is the ideal, not the reality.
Tom,
Do you believe that people are necessary to keep a new believer following Jesus?
Lucy
I'm not concerned with your walk either, Tom. I know you follow after God and are open to turn whatever direction He leads.
And I'm sorry if my comments seemed directed at you. I didn't mean them to be. I was just speaking in general terms about the differences I see between the IC and the more unpatterned relational style of gathering with other believers.
On the subject of "programs", I think there is need to great caution when we place ourselves into the hands of a "machine". The typical program is artificial and contrived. It places greater importance on the goal, than on the person it involves.
I tend to think of God working through relationships of varying degrees of intimacy. Programs are often based more on requirement and ritual than they are on love and caring. They are usually highly structured with specifics objectives in mind, and offer little freedom and flexibility to let God be God.
How do I know these things. Well I don't, really. All I know is what I see from many years of experience and experimenting with relational gathering. I see the ineffectiveness of the program, compared to the outrageous, life-changing results of intimate relationships. Maybe I'm all whacked out on goof-balls (to coin a Seinfeld line), but when you see something that "works" as opposed to something that doesn't, it's hard not to form an opinion. Of course, if all someone has seen is the program, they have nothing to compare it to, and must summize that it actually "works".
Lucy, No, I do not believe that people are essential to keep a person following Jesus. There are times in our lives when we will be very alone, and during those times, God will sustain us without people. However, having said that, God uses people, and allows us to help each other. Why wouldn't we be fired up about that? Why wouldn't we want to share with each other this hard road of life. It's not so much that God needs us, or that we have to. It's that God lets us.
I think the attitude toward "commands" is often times wrong. We look at "commands" sometimes as something that is a barrier, a hurdle we have to jump over. If helping people be disciples wasn't going to allow the abundant life, I don't think Jesus would have mentioned it. But, even if it didn't allow the abundant life, is Jesus King enough in our lives to do it just because He says so? Or, is our love for Jesus based more on what we get out of Him? Lucy, you trust your Lord, right? So then in your heart, you already know that you are going to serve Him even if you get nothing in return. That's how we should look at discipleship, not as a chore, or as something God can't do without us, rather, maybe we should look at it as our Daddy taking us to work with Him.
Bruce, I understand your perspective. And yes, programs can be like machines. There are three people who need to be involved if there is a program. The first is God, since it is by His initiative and schedule that things happen. Second, the "program" facilitator needs to be involved in such a way as to be just that, a facilitator, and nothing more. By that, I mean this person must cede all authority to God. He must learn how to be open to the leadings of the Holy Spirit. He must learn to be flexible, because we all know God doesn't follow our schedule, we follow His. This person must know how to surrender. He must not be afraid to confront false teaching. And he must be encouraged to put God before everything, including the program. Otherwise, the program is pointless. Third must be the one who is learning, or joining in the program. He must be similar in some ways to the facilitator, in that he must be encouraged to put God before everything, including the program. He must take responsibility, and not allow himself to be led by a blind guide. He must be flexible, and willing to learn how to surrender to the Lord.
Sorry Bruce. I must have hit the wrong button, and posted my comment before I was done.
Without the three people, it isn't going to work. You are right, if we allow ourselves to be led blindly, we will fall into the trap of putting the program before the relationship. The question is, do we really not already know this? Or, is our ignorance just the result of not caring anyway? I don't think that question has the same answer for every person. But I do think every person, if they know Jesus can learn to be responsible for their walk with their Lord. You are not responsible for my walk, Bruce, and you know that. There is some misleading going on in the I.C., I agree. But, by and large, many in the I.C. don't care. How do we encourage them to care?
Sorry again about the goofy pop-ups!! I have received word from Blogger that the problem isn't on their end. I downloaded a spyware detector last night, and deleted thirteen files. However, this morning, those pop-ups were still here. The last four times that I have accessed my site, though, no pop-ups. So, if you are getting them, let me know. Can I send a virus back to these pop-up originations, or would that not be the "Christian" thing to do?
Hi Tom, I'm Steve (http://weblogs.oxegen.us/tableserver/). My experience has been that yes, I needed others when I first began to know God and still do. I would be very empty if I could not share this wonderful loving God with others. I believe that a person receives (is filled) by giving (sharing). When I began to cry out to Father, "show me your people" it was for two reasons. I wanted to say to them look at what He has done in me and I wanted to glean from the experiences of others, more experienced in His love. I knew that I had came a long way from the deep depression and death of a sin filled life and I also knew that I had a lot to learn. But quite frankly, after I got involved in "church", my hunger for Him began to be quenched by the controlling methods of the people who were "leading", "shepherding", "discipling" or "facilitating". I believe that it was my own fault though because I was looking to them too much and not enough to my Lord. I don't love them any less. I just found it necessary to free myself from them for my own spiritual well being and that of my family and to return whole heartedly to the One who first showed so much love and merct to me. In doing so Father is connecting me to others who have also changed their beliefs much as I have. My faith in the Father & the Son is only being strengthened as I go this transition. I can't speak for you or your involvement in discipling others but I do commend you for having a heart that wants to see others grow in Christ. All who "lead" others in Christ must be careful not to stunt their growth by making them too dependent on them. There is nothing wrong with discipling others as long as we always keep in mind that only Father can give the increase. Love ya man.
Tom,
I like others here have also found intimate relationships, more intimate than anything in the IC, to be life changing and beautiful.
I am simply pointing out that we are not the ones who disciple others. Jesus is.
I would probaly go further than you on this, as I think, and have experienced in community life with God, that discipling is something Jesus does, not other humans.
I have no issue with the term commands. I fully understand following God is not about rules, but about following what he wants in my life.
What I do think happens in the IC is an overemphasis on people leading people. There is almost a nanny church type mentality that is overprotective. God is more than capable of doing it himself!
Lucy
I don't serve my lord. He serves me, and it is only with him in me that I do anything of what I do.
I dont work anymore:)
Lucy
Steve, I agree with you. Since I am answering Lucy as well in this comment, I think I can answer both of you guys at the same time.
Lucy, Your experiences in the I.C. may have not been good, for the most part. But please don't lump all of them together. I don't know if you are, or not. Just said that as a reminder, I guess.
The fact is, none of us knows everything there is to know about any particular "type" of structured church. And, if you meet fairly regularly with believers, then you are part of a "structured" church whether you know it or not. It may not be the behemoth the I.C. is, but it is structure is some sense nonetheless.
The entire point of the post was to get past the "it can't happen there" mentality, and just be encouraged to do it, anyway. Yes, discipleship is Jesus doing, but isn't it funny how he chooses to use people as well? In fact, tying in with something Bruce said, part of being discipled is helping disciple others as well.
I understand the structure of the I.C. I know how tedious it can seem. I know there can be power struggles, bad facilitators, and just plain bad theology. But, that kind of stuff isn't just happening inside the I.C. It happens in home churches, and loosely held fellowship groups as well. What it all seems to come down to is, what are we going to do about it? If Jesus uses people, and He does, then I am led to look for the answer He has already provided right where I am at.
Please remember that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law, nor did He come to abolish Judaism. He came to fulfill it, and define it, and remind them who their object of worship really was. Has that purpose changed in Two Thousand years? Yes, He came to save us, too. The point is, I am not concerned about the part Jesus plays. He will do it, and how He does it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is how we surrender to it. Do we think we know the way to do it, are we trying to lead Jesus based on our past experiences? Or are we followers of Christ? The point isn't where we do it, only that we do it.
Lucy, you are a servant of Christ, and I think someday, you are going to hear Him say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant." In fact, I know you will.
Tom,
It is something I have observed again and again, and after listening to many others, have seen many similarites.
Tom, please don't allow my past to colour your views of the words I use and ideas I have:) I am talking about something much more universal than my own experiences: the journey.
I don't go to meetings Tom, of any kind. I have read elsewhere that you think only the persecuted church does community. Maybe you need to broaden your horizons and investigate what sort of communities are around on your own doorstep:)
Lucy
Lucy,
"It is something I have observed again and again, and after listening to many others, have seen many similarites."
I am not sure what you mean by that.
However, after reading a little on your site, I have learned something new today!!!! Allleluia!!Allleluia!!
Allleluia!!Allleluia!!Allleluia!!
Lucy, Regarding the persecuted church, they are the only ones I know who do community even close to what went on in Acts 2:41-46. Emphasis on "ones I know". I don't know you very well, yet, nor do I know anything about your community, or others like it. I would like to know, so maybe you could tell us more, and I promise, I will stop at your site more frequently to learn more. You will find I have an open ear.
Tom,
By that comment about observing similarites between many people's experiences, I meant about the nanny church and people leading people instead of letting God lead them.
I have read your comment at my place, and will respond tomorrow. We can continue talking there about the community side of things.
Lucy
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